Series 2: Episode 8 – Holly Wainright

[00:00]
Holly Wainwright you moved where so I moved from the UK to Australia and then I moved from
Sydney to a little town on the south coast of New South Wales
[00:12]
All right. So you moved from the UK to Australia. Was that a holiday or were you always
planning to move over here?
[00:20]
That was a backpacking trip that never ended so I came a very long time ago. Now when I was
just a little person. I came to Australia for a year for an adventure and then I just never went
home and now I’ve lived actually lived more of my life in Australia than in England, but I’m
originally from Manchester which is why you can tell that Northern vows of my accent, but I was
living in London before I moved completely unrelated question. But how good is the David
Beckham documentary? Oh.
[00:55]
So great and very very as we as we’d say Mamma Mia, it’s very holly.com because it’s like
Manchester football Spice Girls like all the perfect.
[01:08]
Barrier of interest for me. Yeah, I’ve really made enjoying it myself by my side. So giving me a
bit of an understanding about how wonderful Manchester is and Holly you and I’ve got a couple
of things in common because I was actually living in the Eastern suburbs of Sydney for about 10
years before I recently moved back to wa my husband’s from Bronte. So quite kind of a similar
experience. I suppose with some of the things that will talk to today around that actual
adjustment of moving from the city to the country. What was the experience like for you living in
the Eastern suburbs and then, you know weekend full of coffee Beach swims. What has it been
like now moving into a regional area?
[01:53]
It’s taken a bit of adjusting. So we lived in we lived in coogee for and Sydney and in these and
suburbs as you say for a long time. I lived there more than 20 years. So a really long time and I
very much considered it home. But after we had our kids it’s very common story, you know, we
didn’t have enough space.
[02:14]
I began with you know, I’ve been working really hard at my career, which was wonderful but life
was just an absolute Whirlwind of constant motion constant stress constant going everywhere
doing this doing that not feeling like we had a lot of time together not feeling like we had a lot of
room to breathe.
[02:34]
And so we’ve talked for a long time about moving.
[02:38]
and when we did it, our actual experience was a little bit colored by the fact we did it in
lockdown so
[02:45]
We did we actually moved in the second.
[02:48]
On the we moved out of Sydney on the day that Sydney went into that second lockdown that
ended up lasting for about five months. Not deliberately. It’s just how the timing happened and
what that meant is it meant that when we left that life, we’ve been living for 20 years the door
kind of swung shot behind us because we couldn’t pop back up when we left. We’d said to our
friends. Oh, you know, you’ll come see us. We’ll come see you later and for the first however
long
[03:17]
It was just us in this new little place where we didn’t know anyone and it was with hindsight. It
was a lovely bonding time that allowed us to really settle in.
[03:27]
but there were definitely times then when I felt like oh
[03:31]
I wanted space and quiet, but have I got too much space and quiet?
[03:36]
You know the place we moved to the little town we were living in then it’s a beautiful beautiful
Town touristy town. You could get coffee and things but very different we couldn’t get which is
funny and when we were finally went into lockdown and Regional New South Wales, no delivery
food. No Uber Eats, you know, nothing like that having to be more organized and planned. So
there were those kind of practical things and they were practical things about health and all
those things. I’m sure we’ve talked about resources a little bit. But what was wonderful
[04:10]
Is that amongst that difference we’ve found a way a different way of living that two years later.
[04:20]
Just suits us so well, like I feel healthier in myself body and mind the kids are happier. Our
relationships better. We’ve got a new group of friends who and our old friends. We certainly
haven’t lost them.
[04:36]
Um, but yeah, it’s an it’s definitely an adjustment from you know, where I live. Sorry. This is a
very long answer where I live. There’s one Pub.
[04:45]
And there’s one Club. So if you want to go out for dinner.
[04:48]
That’s and you want to walk you don’t want to drive that’s where you’re going. You know, there’s
one shop. Well, there’s one sort of shop that sells more than one thing. Then there’s a bakery in
a butcher’s.
[05:01]
So everything’s just a lot less choice. And at first that freaked me out and now I actually like it. I
can completely understand what you mean. It’s such a you adjustment when you go from just
the opportunity to have that incredible Hospitality that you get in that East and we will come
back to this and how you Remedy or overcome that so that you can still have a life full of those
things. But first of all, why did you want to move to the country in the first place?
[05:27]
especially as you know, someone who’s not from Australia what Drew you out to the regions
well,
[05:34]
Not only am I not from Australia. I’ve never
[05:37]
Had never never so I lived in Manchester, which is a big city. Then I lived in London, which is a
bigger city. Then I lived in Sydney. Right? So I’m I’ve only ever lived in cities and I although I’ve
traveled a lot and I love nature and I love being in nature. I had never
[05:57]
considered living in a small town or the country until I got a bit older and
[06:04]
And we used to go on holiday particularly down here to the South Coast. We’d go to Kangaroo
Valley or we’ve got a berry or we’d go wherever and
[06:11]
I just loved it so much. I would always find myself when we were driving back to Sydney looking
at real estate sites. I know everybody does that like looking at real estate sites and beginning to
picture. Well, what would it look like if we moved and
[06:28]
I think
[06:30]
You know what? I’ve the the expectation versus reality is a big thing and but I think
[06:37]
I as I said, we would just ready for a downshift and that’s not to say that life in the in outer side
of city is slow because it’s not actually and people, you know country people Regional people
are busy hardworking social Community Driven like not it’s not sort of like it was a shift to a sort
of more leisurely life, but just
[07:01]
I can’t explain it any better than more space to breathe. And when I say that I don’t even
necessarily mean physical space. I mean just a bit more room that that slight limitation that I
was talking about about not having all the options in the world all the time actually creates a bit
more room in your life. So Brent and I my partner had talked about it forever. He’s also only ever
lived in cities. He’s from Auckland New Zealand and we’ve talked about it forever and we’d said
you think we could do it. You think we couldn’t do it. He’s a really extrovert so she will person so
he’s the kind of person who I always used to joke with him. If we move to a small town, you’ll
know everybody in a week. Whereas I’ll be the slight. I’m a little bit more reserved. You might
not know that from my work, but I’d be like, I’ll be the stock up wife and you’ll be everybody
knows. But anyway, we would talk about it talk about it. And then the crunch came first lockdown
in Sydney was horrendous. We were in a small flat. We love we loved it. It was in walking
distance to the beach and we owned it. Like how amazing is that? I mean the
[08:01]
Come did but you know what? I mean, but lockdown was hell and Matilda. My daughter was
coming up to high school. So it was like if we don’t do it now, we’re not going to do it and that’s
what pushed the jump.
[08:11]
Speaking of children when you’re going to make a move as you did and sort of uproot them and
take them into a totally new environment. What was your strategy with bringing the kids on
board? Did you sit down and sort of talk it through with them or how did you approach breaking
it to them that you were going to move where they part of the decision?
[08:30]
Well, there’s a story here back. You’ll be surprised to hear. So we’ve been talking about it as a
family for a long time and at different times in their young lives. They were more into it than
other times. Matilda was really excited about the idea.
[08:45]
When she was a bit younger and at one point we thought we were going to move to the
Hawkesbury River to an island on the Hawkesbury river, which is another one of our favorite
places in the world.
[08:55]
And we’d actually thought we had a we very nearly did that. I actually went and visited the
school and everything and then for silly reasons it fell through and we were like, okay. Well,
maybe we’re not going to do that and then
[09:08]
I kept always looking at real estate because when we first moved we knew we were just gonna
rent to sort of suss out there but rentals as anybody who is regionally would know are actually
quite hard to get especially at that time Peak covid when the tree change effect was in and its
peak. It was very hard to get rentals anyway.
[09:28]
I’d always be looking and this house came up for rent in bury in on the south coast of New
South Wales where we did to have one group one family who we knew lived there. So we used
to come to buried see them a lot.
[09:41]
And I sent my friend to go and look at it for us because I knew I called the real estate and she
said it will go like that. So I asked my friend really kindly if he would go and look at it and he took
me through it on the phone like that. And I said, yes we want it will take it and we miraculously
we got approved and so then bread and I were like, oh, we’ve got to tell the kids my daughter
Matilda at that point.
[10:04]
She wouldn’t mind me saying she was halfway through year six, which is a tricky tricky time,
right? She had a really established group of friends who she had literally been in primary school
with
[10:14]
the whole time
[10:16]
she was Vice Captain of her school.
[10:19]
She was really into various Sports and stuff. So she was very embedded and she didn’t really
want to and there was a lot of you ruined my life there really was right.
[10:29]
So the way that we my son was different. My son has a few like he’s neurodiverse. So we
always knew a move would be good for him because a smaller School are quite a life and
everything would probably suit him better and he was quite excited. He’d just go where we went.
He was younger and you know, and but she definitely thought we were ruining her life and it
took a lot of crying on the bed and me rubbing her back and promising her things and then you
know Beck it’s the most basic bribery of all time. But one of the ways I got them over the line is
that in our unit in Koji. We used to share they used to share a room. That was one of the
pressing issues. I guess as they got to that age in this new house we’re renting
[11:14]
they could have their own rooms and they were big and they were lovely and I was like
[11:18]
We’ve got to buy new furniture. We’ve got to buy things. I’m gonna take you to Ikea and you can
pick out you’re like the most basic just blatant bribery you get to pick out what your room looks
like and Matilda’s head would sort of go up and she’d go. Oh
[11:34]
Maybe this like so slowly slowly. We kind of got them in with really basic treats like that. When
we finally came here. I will have never seen her as frightened as her first day of school in the
new school walking into year six, but I can’t tell you the community of kids in this small school
just sort of closed around her this group of years six girls.
[11:57]
Took her off.
[11:58]
I saw a little face like looking back at me and she never looked back after that.
[12:03]
She absolutely loves it and she’s still friends with a couple of her with her good mates. And
could you they obviously talk on social media and also because we’re two years down the line
now, she’s nearly 14 and
[12:16]
we go back and see them they come and stay with us, you know like that. It’s
[12:20]
it’s okay. But yeah, it was definitely one of those you’ve ruined my life moments for her. It’s such
a good life in the country. Like I grew up in the country. So for me, I sort of always wanted my
kids have that experience there. So young like I’ve got a newborn and toddler so they don’t
really have the decision or like no another, you know experience of it. But for me, I really wanted
them to kind of get close to Nature and be dirty and have that experience of modern like animals
and trees and what was it like watching your kids sort of adjust to the new environment with
space having gone from Eastern suburbs, which is pretty built up pretty busy. What was that?
Like it was cool. It was glorious because I mean my kids were lucky in that. We were we live
near a beach right? So it’s not like they were always cooped up but that beach nearly all the
time is very busy and I I love what the thing I love best about.
[13:20]
And a nice and suburbs. All those years is the cliff top walks, right? I love that was my favorite
thing. But again Saturday afternoon like
[13:28]
Forget it you might as well be on a highway. We’ve got all this room. My kids ride their bikes
around. I got such a cliche but like they write that what when we first arrived here the place we
were renting was sort of like a newish development and just outside a country town. So there
was all this green space which was great for exploring walking the dog climbing trees. But also
there are a lot of kids who just play outside together and
[13:54]
There was this like, oh they can just do that. You know, it was it was lovely because that wasn’t
an experience that we really had in coogee. I mean, you know the kids could get together down
at the beach and things had always be parents around having look but that level of a bit more
freedom and Independence was great and now where we’ve moved to and where we’ve bought
and settled is on the coast and
[14:17]
They both get the school bus independently the school every morning which they love so they
just leave the house. They walk back in like there’s no school running all this stuff. And I know I
know obviously this is not a typical Regional experience, but because we’re in a small town and
it’s very that space is great. My daughter is very physically adventurous in the outdoors. So she
loves to swim in the river that’s near our house the creek that you know the beach and she
started surfing my son’s a bit more of an indoorsy person. So he more appreciates the fact we
actually have more space as we’ve got a bigger house and more room which is something we
weren’t gonna get in the city. But even he you know, we have a little ritual because as your kids
get older you can feel them getting busier and a bit further away from you. So we have a little
ritual that every Saturday morning. We if it like Sport and everything allowing one of the
weekend mornings will go and have an adventure together. So we might go and do a local Bush
walk we might
[15:17]
Drive to a town. We haven’t been to before and have breakfast there or whatever, you know, like
just something to do together and that has just been so fun. I would I’m I’m not I’m not a person
who always likes to pretend that everything’s Rosy sometimes as a city person like an original
City person. There’s a bit of me that goes. Oh have I limited their opportunities right? Like I do
there’s a little bit of me that thinks that but then I look at all the people I know and have worked
with over the years who’ve come from Regional areas come from country towns and how very
often without wanting to lean into a real cliche. They’re real go-getters hard workers. Like they’re
not they they moved to where they wanted to move to to make it and then they went back or
whatever it might be or you know what I mean? I just think so sometimes if I get a bit panicky
about that and think or have I limited their choices a bit because there are 20 million extra
curricular activities and there aren’t
[16:12]
A million feeders to go to or whatever it might be and then I remind myself I think how often did
you used to go to the theater when he lived in Sydney totally?
[16:22]
I didn’t really back.
[16:23]
So lately and it’s that thing as well I suppose that you become very resourceful and Innovative
because you don’t have the things that are close at hand like you can just rely on getting a
delivery of food or you know, go down to the shops if you need to top up this that the other and
so you tend to do what you’re saying you plan a bit more you establish these rituals that that are
really lovely and you know, we were talking about food before being in the country. Obviously
you’re closer to food sources as well. And I know that one thing that we love doing is eating
really delicious food, you know, that’s flavor some and and finding where we are in our region.
It’s really well known for I’m wonderful food. So we kind of try and find all of their hookups for all
of their things and have really enjoyed building that experience of creating the food from the
source right through to the theater of having it all around a table together because we’ve got
space for a table now and it’s just those sorts of things.
[17:23]
Which I think from what I’ve seen of of your experience that you also enjoy, you know foraging
for food hens and yeah through that 100% Oh, well, I’ve become this.
[17:35]
Insufferable person who grows vegetables like I it’s so funny because I was not like we didn’t
have a garden in could you and I was wasn’t interested like we have this little shared Garden,
but you know, I wasn’t really interested and yet last summer my parents were visiting from
England and we me and my mom as a sort of joint project.
[17:54]
put in Veggie beds out the front of our house, and I’ve just I’ve
[18:00]
I feel like for the first time in my life, I have this Hobby and I love it and we grow everything and
now I’ve got an X another one and I’m planning two more and I’m like and so I love that I’ve
loved.
[18:12]
Watching the produce growing things we’ve grown but even beyond that we so there’s a
farmer’s market in Berry. We don’t live in Berry, but we live nearby there’s a farmer’s market in
Berry every week. We always go there it’s where we buy our fruit and veg and I was I said that
to my city friends and they’re all like, oh, yeah farmers markets, they’re like so hip and
everything so expensive and I’m like, no you don’t understand like I’m buying the veggies from
the local farmers and then not expensive there. I’m only buying things that are in season. It’s
cheaper than the supermarket. The quality is great. I’m eating fresh fruit and veg and Brent and
I have never had such a healthy diet as we have since we’ve lived here. The local butcher is
amazing and again, you know the source of all the meat so, you know, we meet and veggies
meet and salad with like we’re actually and obviously no takeaway. So we actually live a much
healthier life. And I mean, it’s not perfect. Like don’t get me wrong. I love a cheese and the wine
as much as anyone else, but I think
[19:12]
Think that being closer to that source and local producers is really great. I do things like
dehydrate.
[19:20]
Citrus for the cocktails and you know like I just love it. But yeah, my veggie bed has brought me
a lot of joy and I can only see that expanding now. I’m thinking oh maybe flowers and then all
maybe like just I just love it. I don’t know what it is because I have the exact same experience of
that as what you’re talking about. And it’s so funny because I don’t think I ever baked a thing
when I lived in the East like maybe occasion for dinner or something but out here I now hope
this like desire to create muffins from the eggs that we get from our chalks and like to have the
aroma of delicious food in the house. And yeah, right we have bread maker now like there’s just
something and I can’t put my finger on it. Like I don’t know why movie The Country suddenly his
untapped these appetite for the things that you’ve just discussed and it’s not like you give away
the wonderful things like a glass of wine and
[20:20]
Slice of cheese and things but it’s so much joy in a way that I can’t say that I ever experienced
or did in the city, you know, we’ve got chooks now and I know that you’re a big advocate for
eggs as well. Yes, and I can’t explain the Delight that I get from getting an egg from the took
pen. It’s like a highlight of the day. Talk me about your chalks. You’ve got chooks as well. Is that
right? No, I don’t actually have chooks where my friends have Chucks when I first moved to the
when we first moved to the country what I blew me away is how a lot of local people would
come round and they would bring us eggs or not come around or with meet them. You know, we
make friends and we meet them and they’d give us eggs when we leave. Do you want some
eggs? And then they bring us or they’d give us Citrus because it was Citrus season or do you
want some lemons and I’m like, wow, you know that, you know, these lemons would be a dollar
each at the shop near me and could you like I couldn’t believe it and again,
[21:20]
And I think that that we buy our eggs now for the farmers market so we know that they’re fresh
and I’m thinking about getting to expect but I’m scared about Road and so I don’t like rats and
everyone says to me if you’ve got chickens you’ve got rats is that true? We haven’t had a rap
problem yet that I’m aware of but I completely understand that and you know what, you’re right,
there’s such an abundance of eggs as well that you don’t need to rush into it because it’s so true
what you say every time we just got a beautiful packet of eggs from Ann on the corner and we
got some limes from Penny and Steve over the fence as well. We could not have a more
smooth because you’re right. It is a trend and it’s delightful. They go right this is what we this is
what we call it. It’s wholesome country life it is wholesome country life and I feel like in you know
our lives that are so busy and jam-packed full of so many things that it is just those little things
that offset the stress that can sometimes go with work now, you’ve got an incredible career and
you have an amazing job
[22:20]
Talk to me about what it’s like to manage that from where you live in the sticks. I think there’s no
question that probably pre-covid. We would not have thought that we could do what we do
remotely and that was a big question about whether or not we would move.
[22:37]
Certainly, then obviously we went through that period those of us who had office based jobs of
working from home all the time and suddenly it was like, oh, you know, so what but what I have
had to do is which I was gonna I wanted to do anyway, so this is not a hardship is I was in a
quite a managerial role at Mamma Mia, which is where I work for a long time where I managed
big teams and I was very hands on all the time and moving away and only being in the office
some of the time I’ve I’ve changed that role because I do think and certainly post covid it was
sort of encouraged you know that if you’re managing people and you want to build culture it is
hard to do that remotely. It’s not impossible by any means, but personally I found it quite hard.
So my I changed my role to be one that’s better suited to remote work, which is more content
creation. And the what what happens is I’ve built where I’m talking to you now is my little shed
that we’ve built at the bottom of the garden. It’s it’s my she shed. I love it. It’s my happy place
and this is
[23:37]
I write because I write books as well. This is where I record podcasts as a little set up behind
me. It’s where I you know do my a lot of my work but I do still go up to Sydney pretty often every
every week at least once usually twice and there are a lot. I live to a bit just over two hours out
of Sydney. So there are a lot of people around here who do still do that. The commute is not fun.
So it’s time. I mean it is tiring. I’ve got news to it. But to be honest what it gives me, you know
that in terms of living here and that sort of being able I go up to work in Sydney for a day and I’ll
either come up and back in the day or I’ll stay with one of my friends there what it gives me in
coming back home to this beautiful peaceful place is is amazing. There’s no question that I think
sometimes you have to make peace with the fact that you can’t do everything if you’re gonna
move
[24:37]
Like there are some things you can do remotely. There are some things you can’t but you know,
I obviously can’t be at a vents all the time. They’ll be things happening in the evenings and I
won’t be going to them and like there are sacrifices that you make and you have to be ready to
make those and I think for me after 20 odd years, you know, I was ready. I don’t know that I
would have been ready if I was Twenty Eight even or you know, even 35 like but I where I was
at in my life and my career.
[25:05]
It made sense for me and it’s made things a little more complicated. But overall it’s great for the
components of your career that are to do with writing obviously mentioning the incredible
success. You’ve had as an author.
[25:20]
Writing can often involve a very specific environment that can help you tap into your inspiration.
Yeah, what’s it like writing now from the regions? Look, it’s lovely. I mean, it’s funny though
because this is what I think I’ve learned about writing. I’ve written four novels and I’m writing my
fifth novel right and my first novel I wrote I was working full-time. I was living in a tiny flat.
[25:45]
With two kids and a dog and my partner and I used to write on my bad, you know, I’d cram it in
in the corners of the day that I had and I’d write on the bed. I was exceptionally productive,
right? I always said to Brent are all I want in the world is a space to ride in and now I have this
beautiful space to write and you can see it. You know, this is my space. I decorated it the
pictures on the walls of my choice is this beautiful peaceful place, but I suspect I’m not as
productive because I get in here and it’s so lovely and I’m just like, oh and I start fiddling with
things and I’m a little too relaxed. Like, I’ve got a few hours today. Like I still have to make
myself Focus even though now, I’ve got my lovely space but
[26:31]
In terms of inspiration like I think small towns in particular my God. I mean I there’s so much
inspiration. They’re so interesting the People You Meet the community you build the attention
always between people who’ve been there forever and blowins and all those things. Like there
are a million stories to be told in them in a regular which is why so many Australian books are
set in the region. Don’t worry anyone. My new book is not I think that we don’t want to get run
out of town or anything, but I think like I’ve I need peace
[27:06]
To think and create and around here. You know, I walk the dog on The River. I’ll go to the we live
at the top of the beautiful Long Beach and there’s never anyone on it. Well, there is the
weekends at school holidays, but you know, I walk the dog on the beach and it just gives me
space to think which I just I just love look you’ve actually
[27:23]
inadvertedly answered the mythbusting question that we’ve got. We always sort of end we the
guest busting a meth that we’ve got and your myth was that there’s only bogans in the
[27:35]
bush.
[27:36]
Haha, absolutely not. It’s really funny because um, I don’t know what I expected about people
but I’ve met all kinds of different people. We’ve got a group a new group of friends a new group
of friends. It sounds so bad like we got rid of our old friends and we got new friends, but it wasn’t
like that.
[27:55]
We still have our old friend but this sort of group that we have here that we would be seeing at a
barbecue on a Sunday or whatever a really different a really diverse in terms of what they do for
a living. We’ve got friends who’ve lived in this region for Generations. We’ve got friends who
obvious who are a bit like us and have come from somewhere else. My daughter is at high
school with all kinds of different kids, you know people around here do all kinds of different jobs.
It’s close enough to biggest towns that there’s industry and then obviously there’s also
Agriculture and then there’s also a lot of hospitality because it’s a tourist year. Like there’s a real
mixture of people and so that has actually been a delight and I love and talking of mythbusting if
there’s ever if there was ever a bit of snobbery in me about that. It’s really gone from that picture
that idea of judging a book by its cover because
[28:52]
Where I live Brett and I often go to the local pub on a Thursday night and play trivia. And that’s
the big that’s the biggest expert exciting thing. We do on personally, I love
[29:04]
It well there and they might not necessarily be who I would have known in the city, but they’re
just funny and friendly and interesting and everyone’s got a story and I I definitely that myth is
definitely busted for me.
[29:16]
Can you please tell me one thing about the south coast where you live? That’s not on the tourist
pamphlet.
[29:22]
There is a specific beautiful Creek swimming spot that only the locals know about that is my
favorite place to go on a hot day.
[29:33]
And I will never tell you where it is that makes you a true local because
[29:38]
you’ve got to keep some of those things a secret. Don’t you? It’s like oh definitely. Yeah, holy
finally if you were to pitch Regional Australia, what would you say to The Outlanders?
[29:49]
Oh, I’d say, it’s not what you think it is. You know, it’s it’s good to get yourself out of the city
mindset that everything that matters and happens within, you know, five kilometer radius of the
city center. You’ll meet all kinds of different people natural beauty is astounding the history and
culture in places like where I’m living is everybody’s interesting as it is in the city, and personally,
I just think
[30:16]
people are a bit happier. That’s beautiful Holly. Thank you so much for your time today. We
really appreciate it. And really really love your perspective eat. Definitely hits a chord with me.
There’s so many things you’ve discussed that I relate to so, thank you very much for your time.
[30:33]
And we really glad to hear that. You’re loving your life in the regions.
[30:37]
Thanks so much back. It’s been such
[30:39]
a pleasure.